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Re: paleonet Fossils/molecular data: Seeking Thread. Whales



Actually, whales are an excellent example of why molecules and fossils go together.  Molecular sequences, of course, can only be obtained from living species, meaning those 90 or so living species that are the end members of a huge number of fossil species representing either other extinct clades or ancient members of extant clades.   The molecules can never get us any resolution of the topology of the real tree of whales because they do not include fossils.  For whales, this is critical because the extinct group we used to call archaeocetes go unrepresented in the molecular phylogeny--a mere 30 or so million years of pre-Miocene history including the taxa that entered the sea.   Molecular phylogenies of whales help a lot but it's only part of the story, and a fairly incomplete part as well.   Fossils and morphology complete the picture but even then it remains unresolved at detailed levels.  So molecules often can get us an overview of phylogeny but fossils can show what really happened (and of course combined with lots of good geology, paleoenvironmental analysis, functional analysis, etc, can sometimes tell us why it happened).   No good paleontologist will reject molecular data but will add it to his/her data bank as a possible means to test their own hypotheses.

So Tom you should get your students to compare both a morphological phylogeny and a molecular one, using for the first many of the fossils and for the second all the molecular data.  That will help them to understand how different disciplines working somewhat independently but ultimately together come to more substantial conclusions than either working alone.  

Unfortunately the thread you asked about includes too much bitching about single hypotheses developed along the way.   This is a dynamic field now, and we will soon, or should, see combined data that will give us a much better picture.

I don't think  your class really needs to read the tread here--you have an excellent plan as it is, and the tread is not representative of paleontology or molecular biology in general anyway.

Jere


At 07:28 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm teaching a high school elective that compares the paleo record of whale
>evolution with that yielded by mtDNA sequences.  Students study modern whale
>bones, examine an Oligocene mysticete in a nearby museum, use online and
>literature sources for paleo data, and isolate mtDNA (chicken proxies for the
>techniques), run PCR reactions, manually sequence mtDNA fragments, and use
>Genbank sequences for aligning and building trees.
>
>I'd be grateful if someone could email the full thread (to date) of this
>discussion on paleo and molecular data (to me, not the listserve).  Even if
>the discussion is occasionally overheated, it will illustrate to students the
>tension that arises from using different data sets to resolve a single
>problem.
>
>Tom DeVries
>