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I am not a creationist, but I would argue that all people doing their daily living must think at least a few things out rationally. Science is a study of the material world, not the spiritual world. Rational thought is how we deal with the material world. Religion is not about the material world but about the spiritual and moral worlds. They operate mainly on faith and intuitive thought. Science cannot be involved in religion and religion cannot be involved in science. It would be so much less confusing if we could all understand this. Judith On Dec 14, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Nancy Meyer wrote: > The creationists do not believe in rational thought - it > would endanger their entire religion. What needs to happen > is that a CLEAR line needs to be drawn between science and > religion, and it needs to be made clear at every > opportunity that evolution is scientific fact, like > gravity. Intelligent design is faith. That statement does > not demean the belief, it just properly characterizes it. > And it is not the same thing as saying that science is > better than faith. > > --- Michael Kishel <mike@houseofshred.net> wrote: > >> Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that we debate >> them at all. >> Ever. There is no possible debate because it is >> unsupported propaganda >> versus hard evidence. That's not a possible debate to >> even have in my >> opinion. I forget who it was but somebody sent around >> the website of an >> evangelical minister who was also a supporter of >> evolution. People like >> that would be very useful for us to engage and it might >> even be a good idea >> for us to promote them as the real leaders in Christian >> thought. No debate >> necessary. We can do education through infiltration and >> then let them work >> it out amongst themselves. We need more people on the >> inside of their camp >> that can speak to the people on their level, about their >> religion, and >> support evolution. This is a very positive approach to >> the problem where >> nobody gets attacked or ridiculed. The first objective >> would be to identify >> leaders in their camp who are supporters of evolution, >> unsure about it and >> need more information, or are in the closet per se >> because of the company >> they keep and educate them. That may be the most logical >> start. Then those >> leaders can go about educating and debating the rest. >> They would understand >> the religious implications from the inside and would be >> best suited to >> straighten out the problems with their own people. I >> personally have a good >> feeling about this approach because as a Catholic myself >> I could not be more >> relieved that the church rejected ID/creationism and >> supports evolution. >> It's a big "Phew" for me. There may be thousands of >> evangelicals in the >> pews every Sunday praying that their pastor will give >> them permission to be >> rational. I think that if we were to debate them on some >> level then it >> should be whether or not there is actually a problem at >> all. That >> completely circumvents all other arguments. Some of the >> evangelicals and ID >> supporters that I have talked to think things like >> evolution was invented >> with the only goal being to get rid of God. Many of them >> think that we in >> the scientific community wake up every morning with our >> only scientific >> question being "how will I get rid of God today?" And >> the underlying focus >> of every research question being "how can I support the >> non-existence of >> God?" Anyone on here ever think that? I doubt it but >> they think that it is >> your ultimate goal. You have dedicated your life to >> getting rid of God. >> How will you convince them otherwise? With a website >> like landoverbaptist? >> Definitely not. By thoughtfully educating their >> leadership? I think that's >> the answer. It would be nice if one day the average >> evangelical could >> recognize us paleo people as "the ones who love >> dinosaurs" instead of "the >> ones who hate God." >> >> >> -Michael Kishel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Breandán MacGabhann" <breandan@campus.ie> >> To: <paleonet@nhm.ac.uk> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:05 AM >> Subject: Re: paleonet Living Pterosaurs soon on display >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Kishel" <mike@houseofshred.net> >> >> >>> We should be encouraging them to honestly >>> take a look at the facts and help them see that there >> really is no threat >> to >>> their beliefs. Good public education that is not >> inflammatory or >> insulting >>> will be the answer in the end. Otherwise we will just >> further polarize >> the >>> debate and then everybody loses. >> >> >> This won't work. They aren't interested in rational >> discussions. There >> should be no debate on this issue. Creationism and ID >> should be treated the >> same way as the Flat Earth society - a farcical joke, >> people hanging on to >> ridiculous assumptions made in a less educated era when >> people didn't >> understand how the world worked and ascribed everything >> they couldn't >> explain to "God" or gods. I'm not attacking anyone's >> religious beliefs >> here - i'm not religious myself but I have respect for >> everyone's beliefs. >> Except of course when they try to impose those beliefs on >> others the way the >> Creationists/IDers are doing. >> >> As I've said before if we continue to debate their >> "science" with them >> rationally as if there was any question over it, it gives >> them credibility >> they do not deserve. We have to treat them as if they >> were denying gravity >> or heliocentric solar system - we should be rolling on >> the floor laughing >> that people still believe this rubbish, not trying to >> rationally debate with >> them for goodness sake!! Try to educate anyone who is >> open and willing to >> listen and understand the evidence but when they're >> clearly not, as is the >> case for most of the leaders, there's no point. >> >> >>> Oh and by the way. I've >>> noticed that there are several people on here who find >> it convenient to >> hold >>> us all as a captive audience while they sling personal >> attacks at each >>> other. Grow up guys or find somewhere else to go. All >> in favor of never >>> seeing that nonsense on here again can respond "I" >> >> I. >> >> Breandán >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> For the largest FREE email in Ireland (25MB) and 20MB of >> online file storage >> space - Visit http://www.campus.ie >> >> >> > > > "Break the silence of the night." - Martin Luther King > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > judith harris emerita professor university of colorado museum boulder, co harrisj@valornet.com 505-756-1813
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