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The Catholic church is behind us on this one--and, in case you hadn't noticed, it is a huge organization. And the new Pope just clarified that the Christian religion (a la Catholic) and evolution do not conflict. Only in this country do creationsist/IDs abound amongst Christians. Judith On Dec 13, 2005, at 9:28 AM, James Farlow wrote: > I concur whole-heartedly > >>>> mike@houseofshred.net 12/13/05 10:37 AM >>> > Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that we debate them at all. > Ever. There is no possible debate because it is unsupported > propaganda > versus hard evidence. That's not a possible debate to even have in my > opinion. I forget who it was but somebody sent around the website > of an > evangelical minister who was also a supporter of evolution. People > like > that would be very useful for us to engage and it might even be a > good idea > for us to promote them as the real leaders in Christian thought. > No debate > necessary. We can do education through infiltration and then let > them work > it out amongst themselves. We need more people on the inside of > their camp > that can speak to the people on their level, about their religion, and > support evolution. This is a very positive approach to the problem > where > nobody gets attacked or ridiculed. The first objective would be to > identify > leaders in their camp who are supporters of evolution, unsure about > it and > need more information, or are in the closet per se because of the > company > they keep and educate them. That may be the most logical start. > Then those > leaders can go about educating and debating the rest. They would > understand > the religious implications from the inside and would be best suited to > straighten out the problems with their own people. I personally > have a good > feeling about this approach because as a Catholic myself I could > not be more > relieved that the church rejected ID/creationism and supports > evolution. > It's a big "Phew" for me. There may be thousands of evangelicals > in the > pews every Sunday praying that their pastor will give them > permission to be > rational. I think that if we were to debate them on some level > then it > should be whether or not there is actually a problem at all. That > completely circumvents all other arguments. Some of the > evangelicals and ID > supporters that I have talked to think things like evolution was > invented > with the only goal being to get rid of God. Many of them think > that we in > the scientific community wake up every morning with our only > scientific > question being "how will I get rid of God today?" And the > underlying focus > of every research question being "how can I support the non- > existence of > God?" Anyone on here ever think that? I doubt it but they think > that it is > your ultimate goal. You have dedicated your life to getting rid of > God. > How will you convince them otherwise? With a website like > landoverbaptist? > Definitely not. By thoughtfully educating their leadership? I > think that's > the answer. It would be nice if one day the average evangelical could > recognize us paleo people as "the ones who love dinosaurs" instead > of "the > ones who hate God." > > > -Michael Kishel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Breandán MacGabhann" <breandan@campus.ie> > To: <paleonet@nhm.ac.uk> > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:05 AM > Subject: Re: paleonet Living Pterosaurs soon on display > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Kishel" <mike@houseofshred.net> > > >> We should be encouraging them to honestly >> take a look at the facts and help them see that there really is no >> threat > to >> their beliefs. Good public education that is not inflammatory or > insulting >> will be the answer in the end. Otherwise we will just further >> polarize > the >> debate and then everybody loses. > > > This won't work. They aren't interested in rational discussions. There > should be no debate on this issue. Creationism and ID should be > treated the > same way as the Flat Earth society - a farcical joke, people > hanging on to > ridiculous assumptions made in a less educated era when people didn't > understand how the world worked and ascribed everything they couldn't > explain to "God" or gods. I'm not attacking anyone's religious > beliefs > here - i'm not religious myself but I have respect for everyone's > beliefs. > Except of course when they try to impose those beliefs on others > the way the > Creationists/IDers are doing. > > As I've said before if we continue to debate their "science" with them > rationally as if there was any question over it, it gives them > credibility > they do not deserve. We have to treat them as if they were denying > gravity > or heliocentric solar system - we should be rolling on the floor > laughing > that people still believe this rubbish, not trying to rationally > debate with > them for goodness sake!! Try to educate anyone who is open and > willing to > listen and understand the evidence but when they're clearly not, as > is the > case for most of the leaders, there's no point. > > >> Oh and by the way. I've >> noticed that there are several people on here who find it >> convenient to > hold >> us all as a captive audience while they sling personal attacks at >> each >> other. Grow up guys or find somewhere else to go. All in favor >> of never >> seeing that nonsense on here again can respond "I" > > I. > > Breandán > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > For the largest FREE email in Ireland (25MB) and 20MB of online > file storage > space - Visit http://www.campus.ie > > > > judith harris emerita professor university of colorado museum boulder, co harrisj@valornet.com 505-756-1813
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