RE: paleonet The threat of the Publishing Crises to Paleontology and to the Commercial Publishers themselves

[Nancy Meyer <marsglow@xxxxxxxxx>]

I have a suggestion.  As an attorney with interest in
paleontology, and the child of two librarians, I for one
would be happy to donate money to my alma mater to purchase
certain journals.  I couldn't donate much, but with the
enormous interst out there in dinosaurs, why not start a
public drive to buy journals for the various schools?  I'd
be willing to donate time to start this idea going.  And my
daughter is a computer whiz and an anthropology student -
she'd probably help, also.  
- Nikolaus Malchus <n.malchus@gmx.net> wrote:

> In general I think its worth to discuss any possibility.
> However, I see various problems:
> 
> 1) To my knowledge, medical researches often get paid,
> not by the journals
> perhaps. There are economic interests behind, worth
> billions of dollars. So
> there is already a disequilibrium depending on the
> research field with more
> or less financial back-up. In our disciplines it's the
> other way round:
> Commercial journals often publish without page charge
> while institutional
> journals often ask us to pay (at least for longer papers,
> 8-10 printed pages
> up, which appears to have become a standard). 
> 
> 2) Within our disciplines there is a disequilibrium in
> scientific interest,
> also by the public. Papers from colleagues working on
> dinosaurs, flight
> evolution (as we can see in this list), anthropological
> (hominoid evolution)
> issues, or genetics get a much wider distribution than
> 'boring' papers on
> taxonomy.
> 
> If we try to press the professional journals, they will
> probably
> cherry-picking the papers and many of us won't be able to
> publish there.    
>      
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Niko
> 
> > What about a more equitable model of compensation to
> control market
> > forces?
> > Scientists get paid to publish in the popular science
> world.  Why not by
> > professional journals?  Prestige and career advancement
> are not enough of
> > a
> > reward.  Do you see novelists paying publishers and
> Broadway stars paying
> > producers?  Scientists already do the most critical
> work for the
> > commercial
> > journals, the research, writing, and reviews.  Perhaps
> universities could
> > bargain with commercials, insisting on compensation for
> contributions by
> > faculty, a price break, or no-deal.  
> > 
> > Is there some reason the scientific community wants to
> keep personal
> > financial reward out of the professional publication
> realm?  Would it be
> > corrupting?  
> > 
> > -          SY
> > 
> > Sylvia Hope
> > 
> > Ornithology & Mammalogy
> > 
> > California Academy of Sciences
> > 
> > 875 Howard St.
> > 
> > San Francisco, CA 94103
> > 
> > (415) 321-8379
> > 
> > shope@calacademy.org
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: paleonet-owner@nhm.ac.uk
> [mailto:paleonet-owner@nhm.ac.uk] On Behalf
> > Of
> > Jere H. Lipps
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:41 PM
> > To: paleonet@nhm.ac.uk; paleonet@nhm.ac.uk
> > Subject: paleonet The threat of the Publishing Crises
> to Paleontology and
> > to
> > the Commercial Publishers themselves
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Thanks to those who thanked me for bringing this matter
> together.   I
> > didn't
> > do it, however.  It came from the University of
> California, whose bill to
> > the
> > commercial publishers is in the millions of
> dollars/year and is causing
> > the
> > cutting of many books and other journals.  We have to
> fight to keep paleo,
> > some geology and systematic journals.  I have noticed
> that if I fail to
> > respond in a couple of days to the email list sent to
> me by the librarians
> > (like all I have to do is read a thousand emails and
> delete another 2-3
> > thousand spam-mails), they will cancel the journals for
> lack of input.
> > Trying to get journals restored is almost more trouble
> than it is worth.  
> > 
> > I see benefits from commercial publication of our
> journals--they do a nice
> > job, they do whatever it takes to get the science out,
> they do it without
> > additional costs to societies, they do it without
> additional burden on
> > scientists who should have better things to do than run
> journals, and they
> > do
> > it on-line and, I am sure, will soon be posting papers
> on-line as soon as
> > they are reviewed favorably.  We pay profits on
> everything else we use in
> > our
> > work from Brunton compasses and rock picks to our
> vehicles, computers and
> > storage cabinets without complaints.  The difference is
> that no matter
> > what
> > those benefits may be or whether or not you agree with
> me that they are
> > indeed benefits, the commercial publishers are killing
> us off.   They will
> > also  soon be killing themselves off.   So, I should
> think that they would
> > want to compromise on this deal somehow.  After all, if
> our libraries, to
> > say
> > nothing of Ministers of Education, MP's, the NIH, and a
> whole host of
> > universities and libraries are rebelling against them,
> then they will lose
> > too.  No one else will buy their stuff!
> > 
> > The commercial publishers should work more favorably
> with us.  Scientists
> > will not go down in this battle, the commercial
> publishers will.  Science
> > is
> > too valuable to society and we (or our funders) can
> merely change our
> > publishing habits.  The commercials cannot do a thing
> without us.  So they
> > better help with this crises and not fight it, as they
> are making many
> > enemies at levels higher than working scientists.  NIH,
> as you now know,
> > has
> > moved to take publication out of the hands of
> scientists to avoid the
> > commercialization of the work they fund.   If we were
> dealing with soft
> > drinks, you bet that the different purveyors would be
> far more competitive
> > and be offering us good deals.  The commercials should
> do the same for
> > publication, electronic dispersal of our work, and the
> cheapest prices to
> > our
> > libraries.  But there is no competition. YET. Each
> publisher invents a new
> > journal or two in each field and everyone wants it, for
> fear of missing
> > out.
> > Of course the commercials offer us editorships and
> board memberships, and
> > our
> > deprived egos can't pass on these little tid-bits and
> we accept (I can
> > substitute I for we in the previous sentence).  Stop
> it.   We must make
> > change happen, if they continue to ignore us.  In the
> end, fewer and
> > cheaper
> > commercial journals might still provide a useful
> service in many parts of
> > science, but the continued increasing costs will not be
> tolerated by the
> > community at large.   So they better change somehow.  
> We could help them
> > do
> > that.
> > 
> > I'd love to hear from them.
> > 
> 
=== message truncated ===


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