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Re: paleonet Faith and skepticism



Title: Re: paleonet Faith and skepticism
Dear Paleonetters,
 
I have been thinking about what has happened since my first letter of 12th of January. It seems to me that I have just about started a wildfire of words and meanings. I think if I try to answer everything I will soon be in hot water.
I started out trying to say that the creation/evolution problem was caused by confusion resulting from misunderstanding of words. I think to understand what anybody is really saying we have to know what that person means by the words he is using.
I think some of my readers have disregarded my definitions of some of the words I used which makes it impossible for you to understand what I am really saying.
I said that as I understand it the God of the Bible is truth and I defined truth as the laws of nature plus space and time. Taking this into consideration it seems to me that the existence of God and that 'He' is the creator is indisputable. As I understand it scientists devote their lives to searching out and using this truth. I think some people have become biased against some concepts and would like to throw out things like God and belief and faith but I don't think we can do that without loosing more than we gain. What I think we need to do is understand them and get them in their proper places and order in our minds.
The use of masculine pronouns in referring to God as I see it is not because He is a sexual being but because of the imagery of the Bible which pictures men as images of God and women as images of God's church. This is a spiritual relationship and results in 'concepts' developing in the mind. I see the Bible as a book full of illustrations of truth not as a history book. Teachers and preachers today use both history and fiction to express what they are on about so it doesn't bother me if the stories of Adam and Eve are fictional. The four rivers that went out of the Garden of Eden are many miles apart where is the evidence that they were ever connected together? I suppose that these rivers were chosen for their symbolic significance of which I am totally ignorant at this stage and that that is the only connection they ever had. I think we should have sense enough to realize this and not try to make out that everything in the Bible is literal history. If you don't believe there is fiction in the Bible just look up what a cockatrice is! Seeing the Bible this way seems to me to remove all the problems without giving up anything of practical value.
 
Note for Sandy-- I say you shouldn't regard the Bible as absolute truth. In the last column I wrote for our Church program sheet I said 'words are not truth, even Bible words are not truth they are merely symbols that represent truth'. As I see it truth is an abstract thing that existed before there were men to invent words I think truth never changes. You may be aware of the principle of uniformitarianism on which I believe paleontology depends. As I see it the truth that the Bible represents is the principles that we are supposed to derive from the stories in it. I think the Lord and His disciples later have given us many examples of this.You might like to consider this in your search.
 
I think allegory would have  been a vital part of education before writing was invented. Some may not like to think that organized education existed before writing but it seems to me that because it is so important now it must have played a big part in the evolution of our bigger brains. I am not pretending to be able to prove any of this. It just seems logical to me and I submit it in the hope that it will be of interest to someone.
 
Peter
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo, Sandy
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: paleonet Faith and skepticism
Folks -- just some passing thoughts. I also had a problem with the "creation of man/woman" section in Genesis. And had an even larger problem with the story of Noah & the survivors. We are all Jews, right, since the Jews were the only people in the Ark? But just a little bit further in the Bible, the Egyptians are introduced. Where did they come from? Another non-Jewish ark? Myself,  I have never had any problems with "out-of-Africa"  theory of evolution. But perhaps the creationists do.
 
I will continue to try to figure out why I should take the Bible as absolute truth. But have little faith that I will resolve my quandary! 
 
-- Sandy Leo
A Californian Stratigrapher & a firm believer in the the theory of evolution


From: paleonet-owner@nhm.ac.uk [mailto:paleonet-owner@nhm.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Kenneth A. Monsch
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:16 AM
To: paleonet@nhm.ac.uk
Subject: Re: paleonet Faith and skepticism

To those who are still interested,
 
This thread is turning out to be pretty long. I won't have much to say about Peter's last message. Bill C. has already answered to a few of Peter's points. What I do agree on with Bill is that a deity cannot be part of your scientific paradigms, but from this doesn't follow that believing in God is invalid (hard to imagine for some, but I'm not the only one who can argue that this is possible). Just keep Him out of your scientifc theories. When you say "a human has an appendix because God put it there, or 'designed' it this way" you have obviously left a framework of scientific thinking. Peter said in his last mail that since creationists don't trust reason, it's very hard to get anything across to them. The problem is aggravated by this that they THINK they are reasonable, because they are convinced they do science! Sigh. But by educating the masses, we can at least reach the ones who are undecided, who still have a door ajar to reason. Or we should start at school, where children are still shaping their own opinions. The problem, creationists seem to be aware of it. Think of the 'evolution is only a theory' stickers. But let us not give up. Just a last point for Bill C.: the Bible is not a scientific book, and shouldn't be regarded this way. For religious books, 'discrepancies' such as the two creation stories can be explained and still accepted. If two scientifc works say different things, often it is thought that one must be wrong and the other must be right (though sometimes the truth may prove that neither is completely right!). A discussion about this could go on and on and on needlessly, so I'll just concentrate on one point. One Genesis story says that both A and E came out of the dust. Another says that A came out of the dust, and that E came out of A. So eventually E still came out of the dust, right? (Don't worry, I don't believe in these stories in a literal sense!)
 
Ken
***************************************************************************
Dr. Kenneth A. Monsch                           tel +48-71-3754017
Department of Vertebrate Zoology            fax +48-71-3222817
Institute of Zoology
University of Wroc³aw
ul. H. Sienkiewicza 21
50-335 Wroclaw
POLAND