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Re: paleonet Faith and skepticism



Title: Re: paleonet Faith and skepticism
>  When studying the topic of evolution, for instance, there is no role
>  for a deity (in spite of the ID 'arguments') that does not complicate
>  the picture.

Defining a complication becomes problematic here.  Science seeks for more encompassing laws, even though these can be considered "complications".  E.g., we don't reject the theory of evolution as an extranous layer of talk about data, even though the theory is not itself data and is dependent on the data.

Darwin's single most powerful contribution to the theory of evolution was his articulation of the principle of natural selection.  Of course everyone on this list knows this.  But my point is that this was a mechanism that simplified the interpretation of previously puzzling observations.

 The recognition of patterns in data and the discovery of first mechanisms and then algorithms that produce those patterns is the essence of science.  Darwin failed to provide an algorithm because he did not apprehend genetics.

When genetics was introduced to the scientific community over 40 years after the publication of On the Origin of Species, it provided the long sought algorithmic dimension for the mechanism of natural selection.  This constitutes further simplification in my mind because fewer explanations explain more different cases.

From this perspective, viewing God as the ultimate explanation of everything is a simplification.  Not that this is a particularly good reason, in itself, to believe in God, but that Occam's razor is not a good reason not to believe in God, either.

God makes Occam's razor too sharp.  Omnipotence itself is inexplicable and un-explorable.  And therefore of no interest to science.

>  The enormous 'revolutions' in science...have been achieved by entirely overturning earlier scientific  models.<
Not exactly.  At least, they must be perceived as better explanations of the available data.  In most cases, the earlier scientific models survive as special cases of the new model

How is the plate tectonics explanation for mountain building not a complete dismissal of Kelvin's contracting earth hypothesis?

How is the acceptance of continental glaciation not a complete dismissal of the Noahic flood as explanation.

(e.g., the implications of quantum mechanics look very much like previous models when dealing with most macroscopic entities).

But the equations are quite different.  As are the assumptions of the nature of matter and energy.

ID advocates are fond of invoking scientific "revolutions" as evidence that ID is the next scientific revolution.  In addition to the presumptuousness of boasting in advance, this ignores the fact that any credible account of origins must explain the existing overwhelming data that support evolution.  A new scientific paradigm must better explain the data; it cannot be rooted in ignoring the data.

I agree entirely.  Which is why complexity theory (which is really a simplification of complexity) appeals to me in principle.

> Comparable revolutions in matters of religious faith lead to
>  mayhem (e.g., the Reformation/Counter-reformation or the division
>  between the Shi'a and Sunni).
Not sure that these are directly comparable.  The Shi'a-Sunni split was based on a disagreement about who was the correct successor to Mohammed; the Reformation was based on claims that the church had deviated from the Bible.  Probably more analogous would be the founding of new religions.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no bloodshed during scientific revolutions.

>  2. This self knows itself and the world through reason, or
>  rationality, posited as the highest form of mental functioning, and
>  the only objective form.
>  3. The mode of knowing produced by the objective rational self is
>  "science," which can provide universal truths about the world,
>  regardless of the individual status of the knower.

These (and the other listed tenets of enlightenment thought) are not scientific statements.  Thus, by these standards, these standards are suspect.  More importantly for Paleonet, these views are compatible with but not necessary for the practice of science.

8. Science thus stands as the paradigm for any and all socially useful forms of knowledge. Science is neutral and objective; scientists, those who produce scientific knowledge through their unbiased rational capacities, must be free to follow the laws of reason, and not be motivated by other concerns (such as money or power).

Not this one either?


>  5. The knowledge/truth produced by science (by the rational objective
>  knowing self) will always lead toward progress and perfection.

With such beneficial products as nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons; addictive and health-destroying chemicals; novel methods to rapidly plunder the environment...

The article from which those were taken was about the development of Post-modernism from Modernism.  Modernism was essentially the maturation of the Enlightenment, including early critiques of Enlightenment assumptions.  Post-modernism has been very much a re-evaluation of the excesses of Modernism, like the ones that you identified above.  Many of the excesses of Modernism were caused by our mistaking our selves for God.   Mice playing while that cat was believed to either never have existed or to be not given to attending to the affairs of mice.

Science can be used for good, bad, or indifferent ends.  Familiarity with current evolutionary theory should make us doubtful about claims to find teleology in science.  We can apply scientific information towards teleological ends that we have identified based on our philosophies or religions, but science can't tell us what is progress versus just change versus going bad.

Very much agreed.  Which is why I don't think that secular humanism can be divorced from science.  It is the ethical dimension of science.

Again, the main relevance for Paleonet is not the merits or lack of enlightenment ideas, but rather the fact that they are outside of science and need to be distinguished from science.

I do not think that there is any modern science without the precedent of the Enlightenment.  The flaws of science are the flaws of the Enlightenment.  Its strengths are its strengths.  All of science comes from the progressively tighter embrace of the autonomous power of the self.

The surge in the power of fundamentalist Christianity and its entrance into the socio-political arena as a public policy maker is a conservative reaction to the over-reaching of the Modernist impulse, the slide into arrogance that you referred to above with your list of technological disasters.

This distrust and critique of science began as a strain of Modernism, namely Romanticism.  Mary Shelley's Frankenstein (or the Modern Prometheus) [1818] is the most obvious and accessible example of the growing backlash against science through the 19th and 20th centuries.  This questioning of the power of science on the progressive side of the political spectrum is often used selectively by conservative Christians to show that there is dissent among their enemies.  They identify themselves as unified and this show of unity is given as proof of their rightness.

That many paleontologists and other scientists have simply ignored these historical trends and claimed that they do not inform their work, is how we got into this mess.  This mess being the co-optation of school curricula by activist Christian conservatives.

I am getting the idea that many on PaleoNet who profess faith in a deity, simply put that faith on the other side of a partition from their adherence to the theory of evolution.  Conservative Christians are categorically against such partitions.  So they are quite deaf to this argument for allowing the teaching of evolution in public schools.

The very existence of this thread on PaleoNet represents an intrusion of politics, philosophy, history and religion into the realm of science.

Science is often taught as if it were separate from the influence of all of these things.  That is why a lot of students find science classes to be very dry and uninteresting.  I believe that some of the more clever students understand that the separation is not real and that the cultural assumptions in science are simply unexamined.  To the contemporary student this makes the science professor look rather oblivious, which is not a way to attract students.

Sincerely,
Bill
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William P. Chaisson
Adjunct Assistant Professor
Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences
University of Rochester
Rochester, NY  14627
607-387-3892